.308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Ok, I am interested in purchasing a .308, I already own an SKS and AR15 looking for a little more stopping power something I can shoot aggressors at a decent distance and also use to kill deer on my property (70 Acres).

The choices are:

1) Armalite AR-30:

http://www.armalite.com/images/Mediu...8%20medium.jpg


2) AR10 SuperSASS RIFLE

http://www.armalite.com/images/Mediu...10SBMedium.jpg


3) Steyr Scout Tactical Elite

http://www.steyrscout.org/elite2.jpg

4) Springfield Armory M1A

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_i...prod/32597.jpg

If you like none of these tell me what you do like that is similar.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Those are all fine rifles. You'll probably get more accuracy with the bolt rifles but sacrifice mag capacity. I think all would be more suited for medium to long range. Check out DPMS also. I picked up a nice compact, relatively light weight DPMS AP4 LR (Long Range) 308 with a 16" barrel....haven't shot it yet but hear people love them and that they'll shoot well under MOA with the right ammo. Looks to be a good short to long range rifle.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

not sure...but i dont think the Ar-30 is availible in .308

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

The ArmaLite AR-30M is similar in design to the innovative ArmaLite AR-50. With its fixed machine rest shaped stock and unique octagonal receiver, the AR-30M is ArmaLites most precise mid-caliber rifle. Available in 300 Winchester Magnum, 308 Winchester Magnum and 338 Lapua, the AR-30 is equipped with a triple lapped match grade barrel and is available with a 5 round magazine.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Get a FAL of some sort. DSA or Imbel parts gun would be my choices. Parts are cheap, magazines also cheap and plentiful. Gun is very reliable, robust, and sexy!banchabancha

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I thought about a FAL, I was drawn more towards the armalite. Honestly I really like the AR-30, but then I hate to lose the semi-auto.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

+1 for the Cicom M14. It's a steal considering it's hammer forged reciever and chrome lined bbl. Super accurate (in my experience, they consistently out shoot Springfields, which I also love), super reliable. The only downside is cost, but compared to your other choices, it's a cheapo. Like SF said, have Warbird's Custom Guns swap in a GI bolt, and you're good to go.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Since you've already got an AR-15 and SKS, go with the simplicity of a bolt action in a high caliber rifle.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

-bolt - distance/accuracy

-semi-auto - mag capacity

whenever i see a rifle with a scope
i expect it to be accurate out to 500+
sniping / shooting for distance is not something you do in a hurry


buy something with a bolt, quality here may be worth the price

imho

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

What's wrong with an HK-91..?

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I've got one and it isn't accurate for squat. I was disappointed.

I vote for the Savage in 308.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

steyr scout, pretty much the only rifle I want to aquire anymore

m1a is a good one too

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I hear the DPMS is the only .308 in AR format that can handle the extra power without breaking down. I'd recommend a DS Arms FAL, but they have become over-priced. For a bolt gun Savage is the best value.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

How about a Saiga .308? - half the price of the other rifles....

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Accuracy is marginal, ergonomics suck, durability is great, price is incomparable. Best price: www.rrarms.com.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I own a M1A (Springfield) and couldn't be happier with it. Very accurate and I love the clip size.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Get a Springfeild National Match M1A. Magazine fed with 500 yard capability all in one.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Personally I'm working on building an AR-10 with a Noveske upper. I've been doing a ton of research and Noveske is excellent.... However, good Luck finding decent prices on .308 these days.....:banghead:

http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin...lay.cgi?cat=60

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Maybe it's the ammo you're running through it, I was extremely surprised with the accuracy I get from it, especially out of a semi....

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I have a DPMS LR 308. Very accurate, but heavy to lug around.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

The M1A sucks-- it's overpriced, heavy, finicky, and fragile. Get a FAL or a HK91.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I shoot surplus military rounds. No way am I going to load for the thing, I've never seen any other rifle screw brass up like that. The best that I can do with it is in the 6 inch range at 100. The horrible trigger doesn't help, the pull is way over 10 pounds with a huge amount of creep.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I agree on overpriced but finicky and fragile? You lost me with those. FAL is a great weapon as well though. No experience with the HK91

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I shoot a variety of ammo, sure the heavy trigger pull doesn't help and they dent the brass, get yourself a port buffer to solve that problem, I have mine scoped, I can typically get under 6" groups and better at 200yds

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

If I want good accuracy from a military rifle, this will shoot will shoot slightly less than 1-1/2" at 200. If I want better than that, I have a couple of competition rifles that will do sub-1/2" at 200.

The H&K is good at throwing a lot of 30 cal rounds downrange. It has a easy to take recoil; the recoil impulse seems to be spread out over a longer time and doesn't feel nearly as sharp. Lord it gets dirty though and takes forever to clean.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...20stuff/AR.jpg

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

If you are familiar and comfortable with the AR15 platform, why not either put together or purchase an AR10 ? they shoot real straight, pretty comfortable, REALLY good iron sights, easy to scope if ya want, and easy to get current domestic production spare parts, magazines, etc. Armalite will be happy to answer any questions you may have about the platform.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

None of the above...

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

What would you recommend then?

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

"Aggressors at distance"....Actually I wouldn't engage anyone at distance if I could evade and avoid them, but I know what you mean.

My experience is with FALs, HKs, M1As, Garands, Saigas in semi-auto and Remington 700 and 40x in bolt guns.

For sniping at distance: Remington 40-X or 700 Varmint

Battle rifle: the FN-FAL...

By the way, with my HK-91, I once shot a group of eight crappy, reloaded rounds dead-on the X, into 7/8 inch@ 175 paces, with iron sights, off the roof of my car. But that was 30 years ago, back when I had decent eyesight. Those days are gone forever..(sigh).

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Thanks for the input everyone.

I have to admit after giving it some thought I am leaning towards a bolt action. The Steyr with a 10 Round clip and a 2nd 10 round in the stock makes it attractive. I also like the built in bipod. Has anyone heard anything bad about these rifles?

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Hmm the 40-X is nice as well.. :D

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I've been impressed with the HK91 clones made by PTR91. I'm not an expert marksman, but the two that I've shot have been accurate and reliable with cheap ammo. Yeah, they tear up brass...but that's why I shoot the cheap steel cased ammo. I really think that if I need more accuracy, I'll just get a bolt gun like a rem 700 or similar. I like the AR platform stuff for a semiauto, but I'm not sure about the reliability of the 308 variants yet.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

For those of you who still think you must have a bolt gun to get accuracy, Smith Enterprises just had a Crazy Horse modded USGI M14 shoot under 1 MOA at 1000 yards, in a .gov test at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

WOW thats what I'm talkin bout...

http://www.smithenterprise.com/products02a.html

http://www.smithenterprise.com/images/m14se.008.jpg

that is a thing of beauty

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Linky:

http://www.m14firinglineforum.com/up...ad.php?t=54162


SEI Crazy Horse rifles aren't for the cheapskates, they run somewhere in the neighborhood of 5k. I currently need a scope, rings, barrel, and the cash for Ron to convert this pile of parts into the finest rifle available.:D

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

as i said before in a post above
sniping / shooting for distance is not something you do in a hurry
for my personal preference
i prefer a bolt action because it forces me to reset/prepare for each shot

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Anything can be had for a price. The real issue is what is the best value ("bang for the buck"). That might actually be the new Mossberg 100ATR bolt gun at $250.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Left off the G3 and FAL... tisk tisk.

Of those you list the M1A wins hands down IMO.

I'd say the G3/HK91, FN FAL or M1A in no particular order except what you prefer or plan on spending. Any of the 3 would serve you well.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

FAL is the best 'bang' for the buck IMO..........just traded for one made by DSA and it just feels right. :wink:

http://www.dsarms.com/

My thread link on my trade >> http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=262867

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I want an M1A so bad I can't stand it...
But I just can't bring myself to pay $1500 for one. That price is insane.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Depending on model you don't have to spend quite that much. At the gun show this weekend my wife bought a NIB Springfield M1A, I don't recall SA's designation but it's a full size (not socom) with wood stock for $1,275 out the door (OTD).

We deal quite a bit with that dealer and he knows if he shoots us a great price we buy. He also knows we know what a great price is. He hardly made any money off that rifle, but he moved a gun (he's also a whole saler and counts on volume sales to keep his status) and has once again satisfied a very good customer.

We shot it the next day and it's head and shoulders more accurate than a FAL or G3. No contest there. Not as ergonomic for 'assault duty' as a G3 or FAL but for accuracy shooting it's the cats meow.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Armalite AR-10 flattop carbine, just an awesome rifle.If I needed another .308 thats the rifle hands down.
Attachment 43487

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

:wink:I like black composite... that's still too rich for my blood. It was all I could do to pay $900 for my Bushmaster. I'm a cheapo and have self-imposed limits:

No more than $30,000 for any car.
No more than $600 for any pistol.
No more than $900 for any rifle.
No more than $200,000 for any house.
No more than $200/hr. for any hooker.

Edit: maximum price paid for poon-tang is null and void up to $20,000 if the poon-tang is Jennifer Connely.:D:wink:

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

All very good spending limits I would raise the rifle value up to 2,000 tho.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

"Superior to Springfield armory" areyou sure? I'm not saying it's not true... but give me something to munch on..

Do you have a website example that shows and explains the details of this M-14 weapon? I'm genuinely interested..

Although... the idea of the quintesential "American" m14 weapon being made by the chi-coms makes me throw up in my mouth a little.

Sorry.. just being honest.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Just have to say... dang Tom, you have some nice rifles!

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Several years ago I owned a Polytech M14S that had been worked over by Ron Smith...fine shooting weapon for under $700 invested. It would shoot as well as any of my Springfield M1As.

The M1A is a fine rifle if built right and properly tuned to maximize it's accuracy potential. However, it is too finicky (trigger, bedding problems) to be a serious, robust main battle rifle, IMO. Some tactical applications, maybe.

I am not much of a fan of the Springfield Armory product or the Reese bros--over-rated IMO, and I have owned five of them over the years. Current inventory: zero. I have a mental list of the quality control problems with those rifles and my dealings with their service department soured me on the whole idea. Perhaps their newest products are an improvement, but I don't know...caveat emptor y'all.

The best ones were build with all original GI parts in Texas prior to 1974--before the Reese bros. bought the Springfield name and made the rifle a commercial success.

I will no doubt get flamed--M1As have a substantial following. I might own one again if I could get my hands on one of the original Texas guns, although I doubt I could afford it.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Okay, you guys have sold me. What is the brand name of these Chinese m14's and I'll study up on them.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

What problems did you have with the trigger? It's basically the same system from the Garand, which was copied for the AK. I've never had a trigger problem (other than the loose nut pulling the trigger). Also, I would note that the LRB M14s (Crazy Horse) mentioned above shot sub MOA at 1k yards in a USGI FG stock, with no bedding.

In my experience, a M14 type rifle with a loose gas plug, worn out stock, and no performance upgrades would outshoot anything FAL or AK, and a lot of other rifles.

GRAY GHOST, the main advantage of the Chicoms is price. Yes, it's a hammer forged reciever, but no one has worn out a cast reciever. It also has a chrome lined bbl, but you can get a USGI CL bbl on any M14 type rifle. The main thing is it's half the price (or less) of a base model M1a, even if you have to swap in a new bolt, stock, and rear sight. Honestly, I own a couple of each, and performance wise, the chicoms are slightly more accurate than the M1as. Neither can hang with the Smith, though, and I hope it can't hang with the LRB M25 which is still in pieces.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Norinco and/or Polytec.

Both were built at the same factory, the only difference is the brand name. They've been banned from importation since '94 (I think), so you'll have to find a used one. They're fairly common, there are 2 for sale on the PX at www.M14forum.com

The 'heel stamped' model (marked in the same place as the M1 Garand) is preferable to the side stamped.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Cool, thanks eat beef.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

what was the deal with chink m14s having soft receiver metal? sukhoi knows the score and maybe will reprise that information for us.

I stuck with the springfield. a few years back they would sell a national match version for $900, with a bunch of coupons for extra mags and scope, that was a great promotion.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I wrote an opus on this subject, but vbulletin ate it, so suffice to say that there is no problem with chicom recievers, the problem is with improper heat treating of bolts.

This leads to the bolt lugs deforming, which equals going out of headspace. I've seen some really bad ones, and they didn't go kaboom, just started popping primers.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

According to Ron Smith, the Polytechs needed heat treatment on the receivers and bolts to bring them up to correct hardness, the bolt needed to be properly headspaced, the rear sight needed lapping to work properly. He also tuned the triggers, bedded the actions, and test fired each one for accuracy. All for $450. Mine would consistently shoot .75 MOA with my match loads.

As far as the Springfield guns, I ordered a match-grade M1A from them in the late 70's and paid extra for "all original mil-spec GI parts". Well, there wasn't a part that was original GI on the gun. Sold it.

Years later, I acquired a NIB walnut-stocked (unbedded) standard grade Springfield M1A...fine shooter, but it would often shoot 2 rounds with one pull of the trigger. That got me suspicious looks at the range. Also, after awhile the trigger group took a set--dug its way into the walnut stock--and now I no longer had that nice MOA accuracy...more like 2 MOA. Okay, I put that one back in the box and went out and bought one of the those synthetic stocked "loaded" M1As.

Same problem...2 shots, one pull of the trigger...only worse. Checked the triggers on both rifles with a trigger gauge, and they both broke at around 2.75 pounds. Called Springfield Armory's service dept. and told them of the problem. They said 4.5 pounds was spec. Okay, triggers are too light. When I asked them what I should do, their response was to, "load one round at a time from the bench or shoot the rifle standing up." No joke. Yeah, that is what I spent big bucks for...an M1A single shot. They didn't even offer to fix the problem.

Took that synthetic stocked rifle to a competent gunsmith who regularly shot matches with his M1A. He tweaked the trigger by "bending" some trigger parts until he got the correct 4.5 pound break. I stood there and watched him...took about 5 minutes. No problems thereafter. How much trouble for Springfield Armory to fix?

Then he told me about the magazine issues. It seems serious match shooters hand select their mags and narrow the "match" magazines down to three that will shoot to the same point of impact every time. You may have to go through a whole slew of mags before you find those three. Apparently, there is variation in magazine spring tension on the follower and that difference will can actually throw the the bullets POI off by as much as .5 to 1.0 inch at 100 yards. Multiply that margin of error times 6 for a 600 yard match...you are out of the competition.

M1As actions need to be properly glass-bedded to the wood to get that fine-edged accuracy. Serious match shooters re-bed the action at the end of every season...or at least periodically. The problem is you can't ever remove the action (for thorough cleaning) without risking the possibility of cracking the bedding compound and losing the accuracy edge. The solution, I understand, is to go synthetic stock and/or have someone (Ron Smith) install custom bedding lugs. Another problem with the Springfield synthetic stock is that "pebble" finish will take the skin off your cheek after a day at the range...

All-in-all, the M1A is potentially a fine match weapon but, too finicky for me to mess with anymore. Accurate? Yes. How long could you maintain that accuracy under battlefield conditions or a serious protracted SHTF scenario?

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

FWIW A Norinco 56s is the cream of the crop of chicom production. Chinese products can be a crap shoot.

Take the chinese SKS's, while decent guns, they are inferior to even the yugo's. I've got a Norinco uzi... nice gun reliable, accurate ect. ect.... but it doesn't hold a candle to the IMI's or Vector's in fit finish, fell, accuracy or function. Same IMO goes for all the Chinese M14's in the country. If you are getting an M14 it's for the accuracy and the chicoms simply aren't as accurate. Reliable? Yeah, but if you want reliability over accuracy why aren't you buying an AK?

As far as the chinese M14's, the current production stuff that is getting rave reviews is illegal here in the US and has been since bush the 1st baned chinese weapons imports in '89.

Good luck in finding a chinese M14 for sale in the US market. The good ones will never be sold and the ones that get passed around don't last long and prices are thru the roof.

Anyway, you want an M14 in the US? wait for months or possibly years on a chinese that could be hit or miss or get a springfield and if it's crap SA will take it back and make it right. Their customer service is second to none.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Silver City, I would refer you to the article above about the rifle that shoots sub MOA WITHOUT ANY BEDDING, PERIOD.

Do some match shooters go through the whole mag song and dance? Yes.

Is it necessary? No. I know at least a half dozen guys who shot all the way out in High Power and never sorted mags for anything but reliability.\

As far as the heat treatment thing goes, well, a guy selling HT might tell you that it's needed. I'll go by independent Rockwell Hardness analysis, which says that they're in spec.

Prome, the chicoms are as accurate as an M1a. Yes, there might be a lemon or two out there, but there's a lemon or two in EVERY rifle (except ARs, which are all lemons :aetsch:). Real shooters in real situations won't be able to tell the difference in accuracy between a chicom and an M1a. As a matter of fact, I topped 9 guys shooting match, supermatch, and loaded M1as with a chicom at an Appleseed. 1 guy shooting a loaded beat me. And they're plenty avialable, I know where 5 are for sale at this very moment.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Where? I'd like a spare or two and a chicom fits the bill of a backup for me.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I wanted to say that this doesn't really mean anything to me except to say your shooting skills were better than 9 other peoples. Having been to an appleseed myself, I saw a guy with a yugo SKS out shoot guys with AR's and M1A's and M14. Certainly doesn't mean the SKS is more accurate, lol. Just the shooter.

This has nothing to do with lemons. It's simply the capabilities of the production line and end product. Donno who qualifies as "real shooters" or "real situations" but the Op is speaking of accuracy and that cuts to the heart of the matter. It is relevant. I am glad you ended the post with the caveat "won't be able to tell the difference", because a lot of people won't... some do .

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Well Mr. Beef, after a second look I think the Crazy Horse M14SE may have some interesting possibilities and I would give a serious consideration to anything Ron Smith puts his name to. Maybe someday I will get chance to get my hands on one...

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Prome,

Check ARF & M14forums. They are fetching 750-800 bucks, but I've found a couple for 500 & 550.

As far as the accuracy goes, my chicoms shoot better than my Springers. Not much better, but I can tell a difference. It's not an uncommon occurance, as several others have had the same results. The Chicoms were cutting edge with their chrome plating all the way back to the 60s, when these rifles were made. [The caveat on the chicom vs. Springer shoot out, I normally swap my best USGI trigger group into whatever rifle I'm shooting, so it's not a pure chicom rifle.]

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

1st How far out do you really want to go???

Have you looked at building an AR-15 ""Varmint style" in .308???

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Get a FN FAL (DSA). Spare parts are plentiful, the rifle is able to be easily maintained in the field, spare mags are cheap and it is reliable.

I like the M1A, but mags are expensive and so are extra parts. The FAL has an advantage with the simplicity of disassembly, where the M1A needs a wrench to check the gas piston, and a tool to disassemble the bolt.

The Armalite AR-10, I don't like the fact that they used modified M1A mags. I had one with the early mags and it was unreliable, so I got rid of it.

If you don't get a FAL, save your money and get a SABR from LWRC: http://www.lwrifles.com

It's an accurized AR platform in 7.62, with a piston gas system instead of the direct gas impingement. It also has it's own mags (not modifed mags from some other rifle).

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I wish I had read all this chi-comm vs. Springfield a couple of years ago before I got a M1a. It's just sitting in my safe, unfired. Do all you guys who shoot M1as and other M14 type rifles use .308 ammunition, or should one use only military surplus 7.62X51?

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Both.

I shoot mostly 7.62MM because I bought a pile of it when it was cheap, but I occasionally shoot .308 WIN.

I'm sure I'll get reamed by some anal retentive, but for all intents and purposes, they're the same thing. Yes, I know there are differences, but unless you're shooting 600 yard matches, who cares.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I have heard of modified m1a mags but I have never seen one.The Armalites I shot all had a stack Armalite 20 round mags with them.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

The only reason I would care is for safety and reliability. So long as .308 doesn't jam or blow up in the M1a, I'm fine with it.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Here is one that didn't fare so well with German surplus 7.62x51...

http://www.thegunzone.com/m1akb.html

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

And if you read the story, it was a bad barrel, not an ammo problem.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Well I have decided that if / when I do decide to pick up a .308 it will be the Steyr SSG 04. http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/im...26270abba2.jpg

I like the 10 round removable clip on a bolt action. Very similar to the Elite except I have not been able to find an Elite for sale.

Maybe pick one up in a month or two, I picked up a Mini-30 a few weeks ago so I need to wait until the newness wears off that one =p

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Man, that's a pretty rifle!

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

If you plan to scope it, either get a bolt, or a flat-top AR platform. The DMPS gets good reviews and the RRA LAR-8 is good to go as well. The Armalite AR-10B is a very nice rifle as well.

I like the M14/M1A platform, but a good scope set up is far more challenging than on a flat-top AR. And the AR with a freefloated forearm will probably beat it for accuracy.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

This is very good advice.

A battle rifle ie. .308 not .223, is your first priority.

After you have 10 mags, the web gear, spare parts, cleaning equipment specifically for it, dialed yourself into shooting it accurately, and have a lot of ammo, consider a precision rifle and take classes.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

just a FYI .......my H&K - 91 ...........LOVES .................



& I MEAN ............LOVES Speer 130 gr HP's



20 shot groups I can cover with a quarter at 200yds..........



I kid ya not .....FWIW..........

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

HK 91... 'nuff said!

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I use 7.62x51. There are a lot of people who shoot commercial .308 or reloads in their M1As. I've only done it once or twice, and that was when I first bought it and hadn't stocked up on 7.62x51 yet. M1A owners can spend hours debating the question of .308 vs. 7.62x51.

Springfield magazines tend to have problems (like developing the tendency to only feed from one side of the stack). If you haven't already done so, go buy some USGI mags and get rid of the Springfield ones.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

7,62x51 NATO is the older version of the more modern round created by Winchester .308.

They are dimensionally the same round, bullet diameter, weight, shell length, and size with one very important difference.

The difference is in chamber pressure, that is, the force that results from the explosion when the round is fired.

While the 7.62mm NATO cartridge has a maximum chamber pressure of approximately 50,000 pounds per square inch (psi), in the SAAMI book the .308 Winchester has a higher pressure of approximately 62,000 psi.

While the modern rifle chambered for .308 can shoot the lower pressure 7.62x51 NATO, the problem results from shooting the higher pressure .308 in a older rifle not constructed for the higher pressure. Shoot only 7.62x51 NATO in these older rifles, usually military rifles.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Springfield also warns that the more sensitive primers used in commercial ammo and reloads may ignite when the bolt slams into them and indents them, increasing the risk of a slam-fire. I believe that's the primary reason behind the warning in the literature that comes with the M1A.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

PTR91 (clone of HK91), SA58 (clone of FN FAL).

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Second that. The Steyr scout is probably the way to go, but you could also get a Weatherby.

Otherwise a .308 H&K, but $$$

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

You are completely wrong, you're quoting a CUP number for 7.62MM, rather than SAAMI.

SAI suggests using ONLY commercial 308 ammo in their rifles, but it's stricly a lawyer's rule.

Yes, there are minute differences between 7.62MM and .308 Win, but for all intents and purposes, they are the same round. Neither will do damage to a good condition bbl/rifle chambered for the other.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Anyone have any opionions on the Panther LR-308?

http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/imag...=18&type=small
http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/firearm.aspx?id=14

They also have one that shoots .338 but OMG the ammo is expensive.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Jammomatic.:no_ma:

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

M1A or if that fails the old reliable M1 Garand for me.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Isn't the FN .308 SCAR civilian model due out soon??

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as70-e.htm

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

True to a point, but a HK or FAL or Stoner will eat disassembeled M-60 or FN MAG 58 machine gun belts all day long without a problem, I woulden't put those rounds in a bolt .308.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Why not? .002 of headspace? :rolleyes:

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

FAL. M1As are way overrated.

http://hornscustomrifles.com/pic/6-2005/00-1000-016.jpg

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I checked with the company - mid summer 2009. I'll have to have my dealer check them out at SHOT this Spring. I can imagine that the price tag will be quite high (over $2k I guess). As cool as it is, I have to say that the newer FN's incorporate too much stylistic plastic.

I'm anxious to see the Robinson XCR-M (.308) due out in the spring of 2009.
:D

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Because they are inconsistant and tend to be very hot.May be the bolt Winchester will handle them without a problem, not a chance I want to take.
I do know some of those MG belts are super hot and bark more fire than I want to see out of our more precision bolt rifles.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

What are you talking about machine gun belts? Belted ammo?

It's the exact same ammo that goes into strippers/bandos. Think about it, would you really send 'inconsistent and very hot' ammo into a war zone, hoping that troops wouldn't rob the MGs ammo when they needed the same food for their SDRs and sniper rifles?

Please let's stick to actual data rather than perpetuating internet rumors and inuendo.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

This is blasphemy!

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

No, THIS is blasphemy:

"M14 Rear Receiver Halves - Shear-cut in the mag well, stripped of parts, a symbol of the mighty M14, and the intelligence of Uncle Sam, you can choose from Winchester, TRW, or H & R. SORRY! OUT OF STOCK! PLEASE DO NOT ORDER."
http://www.fredsm14stocks.com/catalog/parts.asp

That's right, the U.S. government destroyed thousands of M-14 receivers instead of allowing citizens to buy them.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I have two DPMS AR-10 type rifles. I have never owned an ArmaLite, but it is probably a higher quality rifle - you get what you pay for.

My new DPMS was in the $1100 range, and a similar ArmaLite was about $2600, priced on the same day.

A DPMS will probably work for you fine, but there will also probably be several things about it that are not quite right that will drive you crazy. I get the feeling that the employees at DPMS are not big on attention to detail or quality, but both have improved some from what I have seen.

A good AR-10 type rifle is as accurate as most bolt action rifles, from my personal experience.

I would suggest an ArmaLite AR type rifle with a long barrel for long range shooting, or a lighter ArmaLite AR type rifle for long range rifle carrying.

Remember, the original M 16 was not a little squirrel gun, it was a select fire .308 rifle! Down sizing it was the Pentagon's idea, not Eugene Stoner's.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Yes, the Washington Government's Military is destroying MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF OUR PROPERTY - ALL THOSE MILLIONS OF TAX DOLLARS CAME FROM SOMEWHERE, PERHAPS WE SHOULD ALL REMIND THEM OF THAT!!!!!

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I don't recall the caliber, but I do remember that down in Argentina (or another South American country) the military there had some extra heavy rifles built, and loaded them with extra hot ammo, then sold off some of that ammo as surplus, and blew up some civilian rifles. What they did was wrong, and probably illegal, but they did it.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Buff I've got a heavy barrel Imbel and haven't taken the time to put some decent .308 ammo thru it. I did have a gunsmith offer me a couple hundred bucks plus a replace barrel for it. I'm going to take it to the range over the weekend with some decent ammo, no surplus, and see what it does....

My guess is that it'll do nicely at 600 yards, assuming the cheap glass holds true....:wink:

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

The .308 standard is a higher pressure standard than the metric cousins. I am not certain that all metrics will withstand hard duty with .308 caliber ammo - I would expect some to fail with repeated use.

Maximum safe working load pressure for a .308 cartridge = 52,000 CUP according to the Lee Reloading Manual.

From what I can find modern metric 7.62 X 51 has a max pressure of 50, 000 CUP but one old Spanish rifle was listed at a max of 40,000 CUP.

The difference between 52,000 CUP and 50,000 CUP is that the lower figure is only 96% of the larger figure, which would lead one to believe that if a metric rifle was built to withstand 100% of the metric rating, but .308 ammo was used, that might be about 104% of its designed working load.

I have been repeatedly advised not to use .308 ammo in a metric rifle, and I will heed that advice.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I'd completely agree with this. The metric rounds should definitely be used in metric rifles... The .308 is VERY VERY close, but over time, is your weapons integrity and you worth it?

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

That Argentinian ammo was "spike" ammo, overpressured purposefully. It was intended to be left in the caches of enemy (guerilla) troops, so that when they used it, it would blow up in their faces. Then someone decided they'd make a quick buck selling it onto the US market. This ammo has absolutely nothing to do with the arguement at hand.

Yes, 308 does have a MAXIMUM pressure higher than the max 7.62x51. However, very few (read: NONE) of the commercial ammo out there is loaded at maximum pressure.

The guy above was making the exact OPPOSITE arguement that you are, and he was wrong. Now the arguement you're making is technically correct, however, as long as you stay away from light magnum, extra velocity, and very high bullet weight loads (above 175 grains), (which produce high pressure), you'll be fine.

Even at that, we're talking about increased wear and perhaps damage to the gas system and or op rod, not a kaboom.

I could care less what you shoot, but please dispense with the fear mongering.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

If you completely agree, why are you going to put some decent 308 ammo through your 7.62x51 FAL?:confused_ma:

BTW, most commercial bbls (all that Springfield are installing) are marked .308 Win, rather than 7.62x51. Any gunsmith knows that the same bbl blank can be cut to either chamber (as the difference is only a few thousandths). SAI chambers their "308" bbls exactly half way between 7.62x51 and 308.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I meant 7.62x51, that's all I own......:wink:

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Why do you consider the M1A overrated, compared to the FAL?

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

M1As are heavy and unreliable compared to the FAL. This is based on (a small amount) of personal experience. They are good rifles, but not as good as the competition IMO. Basically the M1A is a modified WW2 rifle, where the FAL is a more modern design, and is far more rugged.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Thanks for elaborating.
I was not aware of reliablity issues with the M1A. What problems did you run into? I have been looking at DSA FAL's but haven't pulled the trigger.
Trying to decided between an SA model or the STG models. I am leaning towards the standard STG 18" model.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Not true. M1 Garand best battle rifle ever built....M1A is it's twin brother. I do not know of a finer more reliable semi-auto rifle in the world. I have fired thousands of rounds through one M1...never a single malfunction.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I owned a DPMS Panther LR-308 24" ss bull barrel for about a month... review:
http://www.gunblast.com/DPMS-308.htm

-- until it was burglarized 2 years ago, along with 11 lbs of powder, 1500 once fired brass and 2500 bullets, 4 19-round steel magazines, 3,000 CCI match primers, Harris bipod, Rock River trigger, aluminum butt plate, Sightron 3-12x w/range reticle, and alternate 1x Millet Red Dot each on Warne QD steel mounts, each pair was hand-lapped to interchange optics reliably well, a nice camo drag bag for protection while stalking deer and groundhogs...

I picked it out for maximizing accuracy on a budget. To get an M-14 of that accuracy class I'd spend twice as much. AR-10's of that 'DPMS 308 class' cost about 50% more, as I recall. All of them are nice but the M-14 scope mounting system is inferior to the cast-on picatinny receiver rail I feel, simple solid and superior in that respect. It seems the M-14 barrel is higher above the axis of centerline versus the straight-back alignment of the AR-10-style, tending to eliminate barrel-rise upon firing.

The FAL’s fluted chamber tends to destroy brass for reloading, and it’s not known for fine accuracy out-of-the box.

As I recall I had selected IMR 4227 (do not follow my advice) specifically as a CLEAN medium-burn-rate ideally consistent powder for the gas system, since the AR-system expells burnt powder residue into the receiver via a small gas tube. The AR-10 system seems a bit less reliable than the usually very reliable M-14 system but I figured always to be firing clean powder selected for that, loading not to the max pressure but aiming for the 'optimum' just-short-of-hot, load... I had the ballistics figured to 700 yards before I ever fired a shot, all I had to do was zero... this is not a rifle for dirty ammo I feel, but custom ammo if possible to accentuate reliability.

I had selected 165-172grain boat tail spitzer bullets with which to optimize all-range performance on the .308. The rifle was meant to compliment and not to replace the niche already filled by an AK. There are bolt-on options galore for the AR-10 style rifles and I enjoy tweaking, so I got one and began tuning and building my 'long-range system'... I still have a 3-lb stock insert (absorbs recoil) for the AR's hollow stock made of lead, now useless to me.

But I never got to fire it, a co-worker got off work early and broke the door in, into my home, I do 99% figure. The police were no help, and I never saw it again. Learn from my dumb mistakes, that's why I write this.:banghead: I pray that my stolen rifle does no harm!

The M-14 is more beautiful and ergonomic perhaps, but I got this rifle for making deep holes quickly, very close together from afar with a powerful scope, or with the contingency to aim from close-up with a red-dot if needed for deer and hogs... on a budget of $2,500 or so.

And in the event of TEOTWAWKI the many interchangeable m-16 parts are now commonplace compared to existing m-14 parts. The heavy AR-type bull barrel is more likely to maintain zero upon repeat shots by absorbing heat and added rigidity. Bedding of the free floating AR-type is of no concern.

Of the rifles shown I'd get the AR-10 myself for the above personal reasoning. Nice poll, and I respect personal tastes, I delight in each of these rifles anyway. The article below shows a shift to the AR-10 system is not always inferior and unreliable versus the venerable M-14 as a powerful multi-role tool ... and out-of-the-box accuracy is expected, according to all reviews.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...SR-25_SAMR.jpg
Marine Major General Douglas V. O'Dell shoots a 7.62mm Knight's Armament Company SR-25 sniper rifle, Mk 11 Mod 0.
The SR25M is in use with the US Marine Corps as a sniper rifle. In November, 2005, the USMC announced it was buying 180 Mk 11 Mod 0 rifles in response to an emergency request from II Marine Expeditionary Force commanders in Iraq. The bolt-action M40 sniper rifle currently in use is reportedly not ideally suited for urban environments. According to the Army Times, "the 20-round magazine and higher rate of fire also helps make the Mk 11 a defensive weapon, eliminating the need for snipers to carry three weapons — the M40A3, an M16A4 rifle and M9 pistol — on their way to a hide, snipers say." An added advantage of the Mk 11, according to Army Times, "particularly in an urban fight where the enemy lurks among the population sharing the roads and alleys with Marines on patrol, is the rifle’s resemblance to a standard M16A4."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR-25

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

QUOTE: The FAL’s fluted chamber tends to destroy brass for reloading, and it’s not known for fine accuracy out-of-the box.

I believe that's the H&K 91 (G3) with the fluted chamber, not the FAL.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Thank you for correcting my error SilverCity, my recollection was poor, and I'm sorry to be guilty of such mis-information. ALWAYS feel free to correct me please, as I respect that very much, sir. I was wrong, but we always mean well I'm sure. :coolbeer:

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

And a tip o' the hat to you, sir. :wink:

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

A family member had one fail in the first 200 rounds. Had to be repaired by a gunsmith... Before you ask, I can't remember what broke..

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I've got the Steyr Scout in 308 with 10 round mags. It's a fair dinkum Jeff Cooper package set up as a scout. It's the "can only have one rifle" rifle.


IMHO the elite is not a "scout" due to it's weight. And what's that extra weight good for?

Now I'm not by any means an authority on firearms. But to me the Steyr delivers everything I want from a rifle. It's plenty accurate, it practically screams quality, it's got 20 rounds on the rifle (how much shooting you really going to do?) + (2x 10 round mags allows to load different ammo for different game), it's in a no-nonsense / fight stopper / game smashing round, it's light and shoulders very nicely, long-eye relief seriously rocks at realistic off hand shoots at game. Yes it's not a cheap rifle. But quality costs not always but


Caveat - I live in a police state that does not allow me to own or even hold a semi-automatic rifle and places restrictions on magazine capacity.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Springfield has definitely put out some clunker M1as. Of course, they're closing in on 300k rifles...

Century has put out many more clunker FALs. Does that say something about the platform, or the level of training of the monkeys putting them together.

I've owned 2 FALs that I got cheap because they didn't run. Same way with AKs. Semi autos are machines, some of them, reguardless of design, break down. I understand a bad experience leaves a bad taste in one's mouth, but saying that the FAL is more reliable or robust than the M14 is ridiculous. Maybe a minute amount, but certainly not anything appreciable.

The M14 and the FAL are contemporary designs. The only advances inherent in the FAL are reguarding manufacturing processes. The M14 has less parts than the FAL. It's FAR more accurate and, IMO, has better ergonomics. And it doesn't really cost much more.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I agree and love my Savage Tactical in .308

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

m1 garand with navy .308 adapter. two for one. with sabot rounds, will really reach out in a hurry.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

re: Garand

I've got a DCM SA M1 Garand and it is a fine rifle. Clearly the best in the second WW. But you can't say they "never break." I've bent the op rod in mine when I was shooting commercial 30/06. Powder was too slow. I learned. And I had it send its extractor flying out into the tall grass once. Bolt looks funny with it gone. Not something you can fix in 30 seconds under fire. Fine rifle but it IS a 1930's design!

I have multiple choices around my house for shooting 7.62 NATO. The ones that get shot the most are the two FAL's. Of course you used to be able to get really nice ones for a heck of a lot less money than today!

Gregg

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I have this one http://www.snipercentral.com/images/.../dpms308-6.jpg minus the flutes on the barrel, and I love it.

Once you get it dialed in it becomes an extension on you because the DPMS rifles are very accurate...I'm shooting 1moa with iron sights, and that is all I ever wanted to do. Throw a good scope on and you can snipe.


Plus, with the heavy barrel, it sounds like THUNDER when you shoot it.:yes:

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

just add this to make that thunder less likely to give your position away.

http://www.yhm.net/store/media/yhm-3300A.jpg

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Damn I miss my M14.

I loved that heavy bitch.

I only had it in boot camp but that was the rifle of my life.

:rose:

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

FN SCAR or DPMS AR-10. Accept not substitutes. If you don't mind carrying a bit more weight, the FAL is the way and the light!

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

I like my M1As, but I prefer my FAL.

http://hchq.biz/mia_photos/falflec2.JPG

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

...but it's an M1A.

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

Aw Hell, why don't you just pick up a used Remington 760 pump for $250 or so at a pawn shop? Fast enough and accurrate enough for 90+% of what you would want a 308 to do. Never heard of one breaking unlike the Rem 740 series autos and you can now get cheap 10 round clips for them. Lots nicer to be carrying around 6 3/4 pounds than 8-11. You can always take it home and paint it black--snicker snicker~~~~~Though I have heard that Remington[for about $750 list]has now made the same gun in 223 with a fancy plastic stock and a mag well that takes M16 mags[a californa special]:biggrin:

Re: .308 Poll, What to buy?
 

The Steyr in the list tells me you don't have anything that rings the plate at a klick. Suggest something with either a Mauser or Remington 700 action, pick a caliber that you can have made locally and spend some of the difference tuning things up to hit a 16" steel plate 5 for 5 at 600m. Wait for a cool, sunny day and go for the magic.